Summary
In this conversation, Dave and Matt discuss various themes in the Invincible comic series. They share a controversial opinion on the Reboot arc and discuss the relatability of the characters. They also explore Mark's moral dilemma and the concept of Viltrumite forgiveness. The question of whether Mark can forgive Anissa is debated, and the anticipation for the conclusion of the series is expressed. The conversation concludes with a transition to discussing The Boys and a promotion for the podcast.
Takeaways
Chapters
00:00 Intro and Recap of Volumes 22 and 23
15:04 The Good
28:46 The Bad
36:08 Hot Takes
42:09 Relatability of the Characters
43:00 Mark's Moral Dilemma
44:19 Viltrumite Forgiveness
46:43 Can Mark Forgive Anissa?
47:09 Anticipation for the Conclusion
48:07 Transition to The Boys
49:21 Final Volume: The End of All Things
50:16 Promotion and Conclusion
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Original Music by Alex Productions
Show notes include some AI generated content
Summary
In this conversation, Dave and Matt discuss various themes in the Invincible comic series. They share a controversial opinion on the Reboot arc and discuss the relatability of the characters. They also explore Mark's moral dilemma and the concept of Viltrumite forgiveness. The question of whether Mark can forgive Anissa is debated, and the anticipation for the conclusion of the series is expressed. The conversation concludes with a transition to discussing The Boys and a promotion for the podcast.
Takeaways
Chapters
00:00 Intro and Recap of Volumes 22 and 23
15:04 The Good
28:46 The Bad
36:08 Hot Takes
42:09 Relatability of the Characters
43:00 Mark's Moral Dilemma
44:19 Viltrumite Forgiveness
46:43 Can Mark Forgive Anissa?
47:09 Anticipation for the Conclusion
48:07 Transition to The Boys
49:21 Final Volume: The End of All Things
50:16 Promotion and Conclusion
Follow our Instagram:
@comicdudespodcast
Follow our Tiktok:
https://www.tiktok.com/@comicdudeswithattitudes
Follow us on Twitter:
@Dave_xBT817x
@Warden43tk
@NuclearIsLonely
Original Music by Alex Productions
Show notes include some AI generated content
Dave (00:02.07)
Welcome back to the Comic Dudes, a podcast about comic books and comic book related things. And much like when Robert Kirkman was actually publishing the comic book Invincible, the November episode is a little late. We're a little late. We owed you this. By the time this comes out, we would have owed you this a month ago. We're very sorry. If you'd listened to the last episode, I did explain why this is happening. Life gets in the way. I'm sorry. It is what it is.
Matt (00:16.398)
Okay.
Dave (00:31.438)
I was a little late reading this time. Matt doesn't hold it against me though, do you?
Matt (00:38.446)
Nah, I'm over it. That's all good. I did the rest. I'm worried about me. I'm worried about me doing the required homework. I actually did it. So when you said you had to push back, I was perfectly okay with that. It gave me some more time to work on my notes. So all good.
Dave (00:52.582)
Alright, good. So I guess that being said, you're bringing your A plus game today then, because you had more time to prepare.
Matt (01:01.23)
Um, absolutely not. I think I'm... I think I'm preparing for the next... the next trades. But yeah, yeah, yeah, we're here. We're here. We got a team fielded. I don't know how great the notes are gonna be though.
Dave (01:02.736)
No, that's what you said.
Dave (01:10.145)
Alright.
Great. Well, before I... If you forgot how these episodes go, I recap what we read, high level, main story beats. I'll leave some things out. So if you haven't read the comic before, but for some reason, listen to these episodes. There's some stuff you'll get to experience yourself. We're not gonna spoil everything. However, if you have not read the invincible comic book yet, there are massive, massive spoilers.
Matt (01:14.798)
Not that that standard has been set.
Dave (01:41.766)
from this point forward, and I'll give you a second to exit the pod.
Matt (01:48.11)
Bye.
Dave (01:48.754)
great, now you're gone. If you're still here, just remember, you did this to yourself. So if you remember where we left off last week, and I didn't, so I had to go back and check, we did find out what Thrag was doing. He is making an army of children on the Thraxan's planet, which is the people that Oliver was born from with Nolan.
Mark and Eve are living on Teleskria, Mark is no longer doing superhero-y things, and they've left Earth because Rex has taken over the Earth and killed millions of people probably. And that's where we pick up. Volume 22 starts with a prison break. The Immortal allows himself to be captured by Rex, and then once he gets to the jail cells where all the heroes are at, he literally blows himself up.
to break them out of jail, and someone has to, like, grab all his parts and get him out. After that, they escape, go back to the secret base. Rex just shows up at their base alone and pleads his case for all of the heroes to join him. And actually, most of them do, save for Amanda, AKA Monster Girl, the Immortal, Duplicate, and a few others. But by and large...
This first issue is just everyone admitting defeat sort of with Rex. Really, it's not defeat. Things are better on Earth. Hate to say Rex was right. Seems like that was the case. We'll talk more about that later. The second issue of the trade takes us back to Mark and Eve living on Telescria. Alan finds out where Thrag is at and asks Mark and Oliver to do a little hero work along the way. There's also a triple date with Mark, Eve.
Oliver and I forget his girlfriend's name. I should know that. And then Alan and his girlfriend, whose name I am also forgetting, because I didn't write it down. But I should know. I apologize. But that ends early because of Tara. What's that?
Matt (03:50.254)
Is one of them Haluma? Isn't that Oliver's? And then the other one I have, but yeah, I wrote it down somewhere. Alan's partner's name is... Oh man, all right, nevermind. Don't put me on the spot. I wrote it down somewhere in my notes, but.
Dave (03:55.458)
Yeah, that's Oliver's girl.
Dave (04:02.665)
What's Alan's partner's name?
I should know this.
Dave (04:13.466)
All right. Cool. Yeah, you're right. Definitely not your A-plus game. Tell ya. Okay. I think it's... Is it Telia? I think it's Telia. Okay. Whatever. Doesn't matter. We also see at the end of this issue that Space Racer may be Thrag's next victim because he was spying on Thrag and his brood of soldiers on the planet that they were on.
Matt (04:18.19)
Tell ya, tell ya, tell ya, tell ya.
Yeah, yeah, Telia.
Dave (04:41.186)
Next up, we have Mark and Eve doing some solo days on Telescria. Eve's exploring and sort of having a girl day to herself. She's been feeling really isolated on the planet because Mark has been out doing things for Alan. So while she's doing that, Mark spends the day with Tara, sort of a daddy daughter day. It's a very heartwarming issue. And then at night, Mark and Eve get at it one more time before Mark, Oliver, and a literal army
leave to go and look for Thrag and his army of Thraxin-Viltrimite hybrids. They go to the planet where they were seen, where Space Racer found them, and while they're exploring, because everything is gone, Mark goes into this deep cave and finds himself pulled towards this blinding light. There's like a creature in the light and there's like a brief exchange of words. Then all
Dave (05:40.182)
And this is where the storyline of Reboot begins. During Reboot, Mark gets a chance to relive a lot of his early life as a hero. We'll talk more about this in the second half of the podcast. Ultimately, at the end of his several weeks in what he thinks is the past, he's confronted by this creature that sent him there. Basically, the creature tells him, hey, you can stay here.
and undo all of the terrible things that happened the first time around. You can save millions of people. And Mark says, Hey, I, I can't, I have to go back. I can't choose a redo on the past. That would mean Tara is never born. And while even I may end up having a child at some point, it won't be Tara. And her life is not worth all of this. So he's shot out of that cave. He.
absolutely like flies as fast as he can back to Telestria. He finds Eve on the balcony of their apartment. He's very emotional and then Tara walks out asks if he's her dad and she is five years old. Mark realizes at this point how long he's been gone. He breaks down into tears. Eve is holding him. Tara is saying like you're still my daddy and I love you or whatever she says.
Dave (07:05.466)
volume 22, but also a happy ending as well. In volume 23, we kick off with what is, in my opinion, an absolutely gut wrenching issue as Mark tries to reintegrate into his life. There's a lot of really tough scenes there between Mark and Eve. Oliver is apparently working with Thrag now and his army of Viltrumite Thraxan children is now teenaged.
because remember they age faster than normal, just like Oliver did. Although Oliver looks a lot like Nolan now. He's got a viltrumite mustache. He's pretty beefy. He looks a little older than Mark even at this point. Eve, Mark and Tara take a trip off world just to sort of be alone and reconnect. And while they're there, there's a lot of...
instances where Eve is just acting a little distant, maybe a little cold, and then eventually we learn that she was with someone else while Mark was gone. Which leads us into the second issue of the arc, which is also extremely gut-wrenching as Mark and Eve discuss her being with someone else, how it ended recently. They do have some nice family bonding time, so it's not completely awful that
Kirkman tried to balance that a little bit, but it was a tough read for me. Alan is attacked by a coalition of planets member who is trying to kill him. She doesn't like how he's handling the entire Thragg issue. When it's obvious that Alan is going to win the fight, she sets his bodyguards, his former bodyguards against him who have turned to her side. She blows herself up in an attempt to kill Alan. He is super fucked up, but survives. We also get a cut to
Matt (08:49.486)
It's...
Dave (08:54.646)
Nolan the Immortal and some others fighting a threat over Earth. We don't know what it is yet, but we'll find out soon because the next issue in the trade opens with Nolan killing what I assume is the leader of the technicians, which that's, we'll get to that in a second. The technicians were the people that were trying to take over the Earth and beat the Earth, whatever. He does it right in front of Rex while Rex is talking to him. They talk about how they stopped a war.
We don't get more detail than that. This really just sets up the fact that Nolan and Rex are kind of buddies now.
If you remember who the technicians were, good on you, because I had to go back and figure out who these people were. The technicians are the ones that saved Angstrom Levy way back in the beginning of the comic, when Mark beat his ass in that deserted planet and thought he killed Angstrom. The technicians are the ones that rebuilt Angstrom Levy. So they had some designs on Earth for a while, it seems. We don't get to see what happened there, though. We also see...
Speaking of things we do get to see, we get to see who Eve was with because they're visiting Alan in the hospital and Telia introduced Eve and this guy who was one of Telia's race. There's uncomfortable talks literally everywhere throughout this issue and that encounter. I won't get into the super fine details of it but it was uncomfortable. This one ends with Mark and...
his family, Eve and Tara, going to see his parents back on Earth. Um, while there, there is a really tense encounter between Eve and Anissa. And, uh, it's diffused. Mark says, nothing's wrong. Nolan wants to know why Mark kind of gets upset at Eve that she was about to bring it up. Uh, he doesn't want his dad to know about it for whatever reasons. Sure. You can pick some up for yourself, knowing what you know about Nolan, the Viltrumites. Um.
Dave (11:00.134)
But we also see that Anissa has integrated into Earth. She's found a partner. He's black. Normally I wouldn't make the distinction. However, they have a child and that child is clearly mixed race. But Anissa also has an older son who is an all white little boy named Markey. And that's it. Kirkman just drops that and then pretends it never happened and we move on to the next issue.
Matt (11:07.31)
Thank you!
Dave (11:29.838)
which is Nolan and Mark going to visit Rex. Rex kind of talks to Mark about how things are going. Nolan tries to convince Mark that Rex has been the best thing for the planet. Mark still doesn't believe it. Eve doesn't either, so they're like, peace, we got to go. Can't handle it. So they go back to that planet that they were on when Eve and Mark talked about Eve's relationship while Mark was gone for five years.
Dave (11:59.738)
Basically, they're going to hide out. Mark just says, the only way we're going to be able to handle any of this stuff, we just need to, basically we need to hide out. That's what they do. Oliver now feeds Thrag some intel, which is about where Mark is at. And the issue ends with Thrag telling Ursel and Onon, who are his two like child generals in his army, to go and kill Mark and his entire family.
Thrag also tells Oliver that to prove his loyalty to the Viltrum Empire, the new Viltrum Empire, that he's to do nothing. He can't interfere. I'm telling you, I'm going to kill Mark and his family, and you prove to me that I can trust you by doing nothing to interfere, which absolutely destroys Oliver.
We're almost at the end here, and this is where things get really, really insane. Issue five of this trade is literally just a fight. It's Thragg's children trying to kill Mark, Eve, and Terra on this planet. And if that wasn't enough, the final issue in this trade has an absolutely breakneck tempo. Eve is fighting Ural, Mark is fighting Onan while trying to keep
Matt (13:00.302)
Yep.
Dave (13:18.47)
Tara safe because he has Tara. Tara gets her powers. She's falling to what seems to be her death and all of a sudden just stops and floats in the air because she gets her powers and she can fly. Thrag shows up. He's about to kill Tara. Oliver steps in to prevent Tara from being killed by Thrag and Thrag seemingly kills Oliver instead. Mark and Eve almost die. Before that,
Mark actually kills Onan, his son, Thrag's son. Like just squeezes his head, explodes, insane. So everyone's just laying there almost dead, like Thrag or Ural, I forget, who punches through Eve's jaw and face. And Mark's almost dead. Tara's got like a totally effed up ankle and leg from trying to kick Thrag while she was, or while he was...
Matt (13:50.478)
Yeah
Matt (13:57.134)
I'm gonna go.
Dave (14:16.926)
killing Oliver, about to kill Oliver. It's just absolute bedlam in this issue. But if you remember from way back in whatever volume, Conquest killed Kate, not Kate, Eve. When she is near death or at death's door, that is when her powers fully activate. So she rebuilds herself and Mark and fixes Terra. She also rebuilds them a little bit stronger.
Matt (14:28.046)
strong question.
Matt (14:32.014)
Yes, it works.
Dave (14:47.986)
Unfortunately, she says it was too late for Oliver, so Oliver is apparently dead now. At this point, even Mark agree that the only thing that they could possibly do right now is to head back to Teleskria and finish this thing with Thrag once and for all. This sets up our final two trades and the last episode of our year-long celebration of Invincible, which will be in January.
Dave (15:18.791)
Matt, how'd I do?
Matt (15:20.174)
You did good. That wasn't, that was one of your shorter ones too. I want to say, but yeah, that was good.
Dave (15:25.318)
It was short. It was short. I mean, I skipped three issues of reboot.
Matt (15:29.038)
Yeah, like you said, we're gonna talk about that though. I definitely wanna talk about Reboot, but you know, you did great.
Would you like f- No, no, that was good. It was good. Do you want me to talk a little bit, or? How you feeling?
Dave (15:36.818)
I wasn't, that wasn't me fishing for compliments, but I appreciate getting them nonetheless.
Dave (15:46.162)
I mean, we're gonna, it's time to move into the second half of the episode, which is the good, the bad, and any hot takes that we may have. So, dude, take it away. Talk about the things that you like, the good. I have quite a few, but I bet we have a lot that are the same.
Matt (15:49.582)
Okay.
Matt (15:58.574)
D- Okay.
So like, I do want to talk about Reboot. I kind of want to know your thoughts on it, but before even that, just like high level, I don't know why, but like, well, I know why, cause he's a masterful writer, but whenever Robert Kirkman introduces a stunt, I like, I kind of fell for it. And I'm like trying to put myself back in the day when this stuff came out, like the first stunt, Black Invincible.
Like I was like, there's no way this is going to happen. But like when I was reading, I'm like, is he actually going to like pull this off? Like, are we going to sideline Mark for like an extended period of time? And I got really bought into it. And the same thing with reboot. Like I was like, there's no way they're going to reboot this series. Like whatsoever. Like he's clearly making a joke on the entire comic book industry. But then like reading reboot, I was like, I remember when I solicited, I was like, there's no way they're rebooting invincible. And then like reading it, I'm like,
Dave (16:46.398)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (16:59.182)
I could see this. Like I kind of like in hindsight would like to see Kirkman do like a little Elseworlds mini series of like 12 issues of like, what would happen if Reboot kind of went through? I think that would have been like a really, as we revisit the Invincible universe, a really cool thing to do just like a year of like the rebooted universe. I like that Reboot was one. As an art snob, I loved it.
this was an opportunity for Ottley to go back and do the art. Like, cause you know, I got some Cory Walker slander and there's going to be a lot of that. But like, I actually got to see, I got to see Ottley do it. And I like the concept and we've all done it. Like admit it to yourself. I love my life. But I've definitely thought about what would happen if I went left instead of right here? You know, like,
Dave (17:31.102)
I knew this was coming.
I knew this was coming. Corey, earmuffs Corey, you don't have to listen to this.
Matt (17:54.798)
And Mark had that opportunity to actually do that. And he righted a lot of wrongs. I like that they like.
Dave (18:02.862)
Yeah, he did. I mean, he was extremely proactive. He was able to talk Nolan down before they had that fight. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of good stuff that happened.
Matt (18:08.398)
Like, I-
Like he talked Nolan down, but like part of it, of that particular exchange that I really liked was like your favorite thing in the new Spider-Verse movie. Like the Nolan-Mark fight was kind of like a canon event. No matter how they do it, there was gonna be some kind of altercation there. And Nolan, at that point in his life or whatever, he had to go through that to realize. Cause Mark was just like cut to the chase like.
Dave (18:29.158)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (18:37.07)
Tell me you love mom. Like that, they were gonna, he was trying to get through that entire, you know, encounter and not even have that go down, but it still went down to a certain extent, you know. The results were different, like Immortal lived, the Guardians lived, all that kind of stuff happened, but it's still kind of played out. And I liked that. I liked the hint as well too, with like Rex. Like Rex talks, there's like a line of him talking about like his lack of like relationships with people.
You know, you can see the seeds of what got planted down the line and that, and that universe. So, um, that was cool. I mean, I don't want to ramble on too long about the reboot universe, but, but I liked it. I liked in your recap when you did talk about the blue blinding light. It was like, yeah, you did a lot of good. You can stay here. Not only did they like kick him back, like they dog cussed him. It was like, you're a disgrace. Like this alien was like, you're a disgrace, bro. Like you re you could have changed the world, but you sacrificed everything for this little girl and. You know,
Dave (19:09.327)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (19:35.15)
I get that. I do understand that point of view. I understand both points of view. So I liked Reboot. What were your thoughts? I don't know if you liked it or you hated it or...
Dave (19:44.55)
My reboot thoughts are actually in my hot take section. But I will say, the title of the arc and the trade isn't reboot, it's reboot with a question mark. And that's because this, what reboot was, was giving Mark a choice. It was giving Mark the choice that you mentioned, like.
Matt (19:46.926)
Okay, cool. All right, cool, cool.
Matt (19:58.958)
Okay, yeah, and that's what it was on the issues too.
Dave (20:09.466)
that no one ever really gets the chance to go back and do things differently. And then, it's more, it wasn't really like, is Kirkman going to reboot the comic? It was, is Mark gonna make the decision to reboot his life?
Matt (20:27.214)
some deep shit that's why we keep you around. I didn't think of it like... I don't know if you ever seen... I don't know if you ever seen the movie Replacements with Keanu Reeves. Okay, never mind. It's a football movie where they talk about... they talk about... they're like in a team meeting and they're talking about the concept of quicksand in a football game where you make one-ish error and it just keeps piling, piling, piling on. And like that's what Shane Falco says. He's like, it's like quicksand.
Dave (20:29.31)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Dave (20:38.146)
No, wait, is that the football movie? Yeah, I saw that, but you didn't years. Like, I don't remember anything that happened in it.
Matt (20:55.726)
And then the one black offense of life was like, that's some deep shit. That's what it's just reminded me of. So now I'm gonna start calling you sugar Shane Falco. Nevermind, nevermind that. I know you like for me to touch on this stuff, but the daddy moments, the emotional moments, dude, rough. Missing out on, missing out on. I knew you were going to.
Dave (20:59.622)
Hehehehe
Dave (21:03.748)
Okay.
Dave (21:14.314)
I knew they would be. I was thinking about you so often when I was reading. I have notes in my, like, I take notes in the notes app on iPhone, like while I'm reading, then I convert everything into like a Word doc before we do the episode. But I have multiple notes of like, need to ask Matt or Matt will talk about this, about all that stuff. Cause I know the family stuff, totally different lens for you now. Can't wait.
Matt (21:22.03)
Yeah.
Matt (21:26.254)
Yup.
Matt (21:38.446)
Yep, totally different lens. Just the whole like missing out on like five years, dude. Like I'm thinking about that now. Like I was laid off, not even five years, but I was laid off for a year with a, my first child. So I got to spend all that time, you know, with my first daughter. And like, now that I'm kind of now that I'm back to work, like we're approaching that period with my next daughter and like, I want to have that time, but it's not going to work out like that. So it's like, I feel like I'm missing out on time already, you know,
So magnify that times five years of not being president at all. And then your brother's grown. He's completely, he's completely different. He has like, not that it matters, but he has normal skin. He looks like a normal dude. He's got a sweet mustache. And then your wife step it out on you, which no, I, you can't be mad at her. Like bro, you were gone for five years. Whoever knew if you were going to come back. So like, that was like the whole trifecta of that one issue. Like, uh, man, that was just like, it was gutting, gutting for me.
Dave (22:34.906)
Yeah, absolutely.
Matt (22:37.71)
And then the last moment that like was good that like I thought was like very touching was the moment where, and all that brutality and fighting and, uh, issues like 131 and 132, uh, still the joy of when Tara learns how to fly for the first time at the end of the, the issue. And it kind of reminds you of the Mark, uh, throwing the, uh, the trash at burger mart into the sky. It's one of those like good moments, like, cool. I got my powers. So, uh, those are like my, my top good things that I enjoyed.
Dave (22:59.998)
Mm-hmm.
Dave (23:08.726)
All right. I got a few more that you didn't touch on. The start of volume 22, it's like the opening few panels where Robot is holding Immortal by the neck, and there's a bunch of just totally ripped apart, dead duplicates laying all over the place. Every month we find a few things of Olly Gore to call out that were like...
Matt (23:23.534)
Yeah.
Dave (23:35.674)
that was awesome or that made me squeamish. This was both. Just fantastic way to kick off this trade. I freaking loved it. Great stuff. Also love the D.A. Sinclair redemption arc. Aiding in the prison break and then dude just like skitters off into space in a spaceship after. It's like he helps him out and then he's just like, peace out, good luck. See you when I see ya.
Matt (23:50.51)
Yes!
Matt (24:00.846)
Yeah, but... Yeah? Good stuff.
Dave (24:06.17)
Very unlikable character, but you know, little redemption, little redemption.
Matt (24:06.318)
Dear.
Matt (24:10.766)
One of Cecil's good moments, you know, keeping him around and end up paying off, like, you know, giving him a second chance.
Dave (24:14.33)
Yeah, it did. It did.
Dave (24:19.422)
Also, I loved finding out that there's a member of Battle Beasts race in the Coalition of Planets. That was nice, and some kind words about Battle Beasts between him and Alan, so a little nod to my fallen soldier Battle Beasts. I still get to see him, but only wrapped around frag shoulders.
Matt (24:40.142)
Yeah, I know she didn't mention that in your recap. That he was rapping. I never will.
Dave (24:43.342)
No. No, and I won't.
No, I'm still mad about it. Dude, the whole, I mean, you mentioned it, I mentioned it, but the whole fight with Thragg's two kids is just insane. And it is such an interesting and well-written, you know, air quoting, superhero fight because of Terra being involved in it. The way that-
Matt (25:00.11)
Yeah, that was insane.
Dave (25:17.806)
Mark has to adjust his strategy, make sure that he's not flying too fast so she doesn't die from asphyxiation because she can't breathe because of the g-forces. The way that he's got to shift his weight, punch differently, move differently to keep her safe while still keeping on and off balance. Just such a cool, cool series of events and such a cool fight.
On top of that, you know, this is throughout the course of the comic, Kirkman does a great job of like the way that he positions the Viltrumites as these unbeatable, emotionless, savage killers. And you've seen it throughout the course of the comic from the very first
couple of trades where Mark is almost beaten to death by an adult Viltrumite while he's still a teenager. The way that Alan can't hold his own until he almost dies and rebuilds himself several times. Even the way it takes multiple heroes to take on one Viltrumite in some of those other fights and the Viltrumite war and whatever. The Viltrumites are just
almost feel like a Terminator-esque type of a character. You know, like in those Terminator movies, like Terminator shows up and you're like, damn, nothing anybody can do right now, except like try to escape. And the way that has built, and built, and built, and built, and then when, even though they're teenagers, and even though they're half-breeds, when Onan and Ursul show up on that planet to kill Mark, even Terra.
The fear while reading that is palpable. Because you know damn well that's an unwinnable fight for Eve.
Dave (27:21.658)
and there's a child involved who at the time doesn't have any superpowers. And it just feels like an impossible situation. Uh, it's just such a, it's such a unique and interesting fight sequence in a comic book. Again, it's one of the things that Kirkman does over and over and over and over again in this comic. Um, it was a very, a very impressive read. Even the third time I'm still, it's like the first time I've ever read it. Fantastic.
And then my last good is When mark is about to kill onan and he's holding him by the head and he's talking to Thrag he's like Hey, man, like I got your son. You have my daughter. We don't have to do this. Let's just Let's just trade back and we're good and Thrag makes some comment about I know you're always gonna try to be the hero And mark just says being a hero is bullshit and pops that boy's head in his hand
Matt (27:59.118)
and ears.
Matt (28:16.43)
Yeah.
Dave (28:19.942)
Being a hero is bullshit is such an amazing quote in what is taglined as the greatest superhero comic book in the universe for 144 issues.
Dave (28:33.422)
It's another, it is another moment where Mark has, Mark has changed and he has entered like a new, it's a new season for Mark in terms of who he is as a person, how he views himself, how he views the world. Chef's kiss.
Matt (28:52.334)
Yeah, no, that's definitely on my list as well too. So, no, it's not in my good section though. It's on my list, but yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on my list, so.
Dave (28:57.37)
Oh, sorry, I thought you were done with your list. I didn't mean to.
Oh. I only have a couple of bads.
Matt (29:07.15)
Me too. Like there, yeah, yeah. I mean, my bads really aren't. I mean, I'll jump off the, uh, what you talked about in the good. And it's just like the bloodthirstiness of, uh, Thrag. And like you, I think you recapped and covered it perfectly. So I don't really want to go into it, but like it's, I think what hit me with that whole scene at that, that location was the fact that there are children or teenagers that are being used. And it just, it reminds me of real world allegories that I've seen of, you know,
in other nations like just or just here as well too like children being used and being kind of like taught at a very young age to like hate so like Thrag has made these children like very bloodthirsty at a very young age especially Onan or whatever like he is like especially cruel um so it's just like these radicalized children showing up like you said like the Terminator or like Michael Myers or Jason
Dave (29:54.462)
Yes.
Matt (30:04.078)
that are kind of like these unstoppable forces and like, how are we going to get out of this fight? Especially having like one hand tied behind our back because we're also, you know, playing defense as well too. So it is, was definitely scary. I think like we went from some very bombastic fights with Viltrumites. And I feel like as we've come towards the end of these series, as Mark and Eve were just trying to escape and like do their own thing and just kind of be left alone, they're keep being confronted with all these
you know, impossible circumstances at the home front. And I think that's what makes it more scary is it's just like, it's always their front doorstep. They're just trying to get away. And it's just a more menacing threat every time. So the bloodthirstyness of Craig I did not like, but I did like. The one thing I definitely didn't like, I didn't like that they had to make my man Oliver a snitch. I completely forgot about this. He's out here snitching the thrag.
telling them the location, telling them where Mark is at. Tell like, oh, I just didn't like that, man. Like, I appreciate Oliver. He's got the Dave [redacted] complex, as I like to say it. Just, Justin. No, no, no, oh, I did put your government out there. I'm sorry. The Dave complex is...
Dave (31:16.766)
What? Government name, really? Government name.
Dave (31:29.649)
I'll edit that out later.
Matt (31:30.67)
I appreciate you editing that out. The undying just like loyalty to someone and I just really appreciate that. Not the snitching tactic, Dave, that's not what I'm talking about, but like just loyalty above all else. I can appreciate that to the culture, to the heritage. But yeah, I didn't like that Oliver went out like that. I did not remember that happening. He does kind of come at the end, he does try to make it right, but the damage has kind of been done.
Dave (31:43.178)
Alright.
Dave (31:54.846)
You know, I-
Dave (32:01.158)
I'd like to think Oliver was just confused. Thrag is building this new Viltrumite empire and it's populated with people that are just like Oliver. Oliver was a one of one up until Thrag started what was essentially a breeding camp. But I have to assume that part of Oliver's motivation was to fit in and belong somewhere.
Matt (32:18.158)
Yeah.
Dave (32:26.526)
Because he didn't remember when he was a child on earth. He remarked multiple times, like, I don't get these people. I don't feel any kinship with these people. I don't like it here. I have to assume that he has been a very, very lonely person throughout his entire life because of that. So maybe it was, maybe it was just a moment of weakness thinking, well, now there's, this is somewhere that I would belong because everyone will be just like me.
Matt (32:28.974)
He was one of one.
Matt (32:33.23)
Yes.
Matt (32:55.598)
Once again, great analysis, great analysis.
Dave (32:59.278)
I try. That's it for you? All right, so I only have two. One, this one, the first one's not really, it's not bad, but like.
Matt (33:01.614)
That's all my, yeah, that's all my things I didn't really like.
Dave (33:10.566)
At the end of reboot, right before that weird tentacle creature shows up in his bedroom, and they have that interaction about, you know, do you want to stay here and keep all the good you've done or go back? Before that thing shows up, Mark, I forget what they were doing, but he was involved in some sort of superheroing stuff. And there's a moment where he has an interaction with Eve.
And then Rex reminds him that Eve is his girlfriend, because at the time they were together. And there's another moment where Mark just looks at Eve and he gets back into his room and he sits down and he just starts crying. And man, that shit hit me so hard. The dude's just defeated. All he wants is to get.
back to his life, the life that he worked so hard to preserve. And he's just like trapped, doesn't know how to get back, doesn't know what's going on, doesn't know how he got there. It wasn't a bad scene. It was actually a very well-done thing, in my opinion, in the comic. It just made me sad. And that was bad. I didn't like feeling sad. But by no means bad.
Matt (34:31.438)
I just wanted to confirm the whole main sacrifice that Mark made was not telling Rex about him and Eve and that's what the alien monster was saying. Your selflessness of not exposing this is the reason we chose you XYZ. So that was part of why he was selected. His selflessness, one of his acts that he did.
Dave (34:53.243)
Yeah.
Dave (34:56.774)
Yep. Fair.
Dave (35:01.598)
My other bad, this is, I got to own this. I actually can't believe you didn't correct me on it when I said it wrong before on this podcast. But I've also been saying someone's name wrong for years and no one's ever corrected me for some reason. But the former leader of the coalition of planets who Alan replaced, the guy's name is Thetis, not Fatius.
I've been calling them fattiest for such a long time. No, it's Thetis.
Matt (35:31.022)
I thought it was status.
Matt (35:36.846)
That makes sense more, uh, with more alien, I guess, but old daddy is down the street, man. You're-
Dave (35:41.306)
I mean, if you look at the way that it's spelled, it's spelled T-H-A-E-D-U-S. There's no way to get fattiest out of that. I don't know how I got there.
Matt (35:47.054)
Navra, Thaddeus, old Thad down the street man. I don't, you're all about these names, I don't know, Tellia, Telia, Telescaria, there's all, Telescaria, there's all these different weird alien names, so I'll leave that to you as the dictation king.
Dave (36:05.658)
Well, I mean, there's also the additional tool of, this is now a show that Robert Kirkman is involved in. So when they pronounce someone's name, I assume that is the correct pronunciation, and that motherfucker's name is Thetis.
Matt (36:12.75)
That's true.
Matt (36:18.318)
Canon, baby. Amazon, Canon, it makes it Canon now. That makes sense, yeah, no, it's a great tool that I still haven't approached.
Dave (36:23.249)
Yeah.
Dave (36:30.118)
I have one hot take. It's a reboot hot take.
Matt (36:31.854)
K.
Matt (36:35.278)
Well, he's gonna say you hated it. Yep.
Dave (36:38.226)
So I actually did some research on these two trades. I just, one of the things that we haven't done a lot of while doing our reread is look at what other people think. And that's primarily, and maybe it's a character flaw in me, I don't know. I generally don't really care what other people think. I'm just worried about me and mine and what I'm doing and what I'm thinking.
Matt (36:42.446)
Oh, I love it.
Dave (37:08.454)
But I did have some curiosity around this, particularly because I haven't really enjoyed Reboot when I've read this in the past. And it turns out that sentiment is actually quite popular. A lot of people didn't like Reboot and still don't. In fact, I've seen it referred to as the worst arc in Invincible, like full stop. Like it is the worst arc in Invincible.
that it didn't make sense, there's no reason to do it. And on read number three, reread number two.
My outlook changed and I think that not only can I confidently say that Reboot isn't the worst invincible arc ever, it's potentially one of the best. And this is why. It forces Mark to make a tough decision, another tough decision. He's faced with a lot of those throughout the comic. And ultimately...
Matt (38:09.262)
Yeah.
Dave (38:13.754)
Reboot is a story about facing the consequences of your own and others' actions and challenging Mark along the way. Young Mark would do whatever it took to, you know, quote unquote, do the right thing and save lives, no matter what. It was black and white for him. And in the middle of the comic, he starts to step into grayer spaces. His work with Dinosaurus, the morality of their choices,
was weighed against the means of achieving good that they were trying to achieve. And Reboot almost feels to me like it's one of or the final evolution of Mark, where just one life, and that's the life of Tara, his daughter, is immeasurably more important than saving millions upon millions that he could by taking the do-over and rebooting his entire life. And I think that has more weight
than I was able to understand or admit to when I read this previously. And I think that's probably the same for other people that feel that way. And maybe it takes reading this when you're a little bit older or reading it with fresh eyes after the fact, or going through some pretty tough stuff yourself and seeing that this is a really human evolution for Mark. And I think that it's something that is, we talked about this before many, many times, that...
This comic is so relatable and human. I think this was just, I didn't get it the first time or the second time, but I did this time. And I hope other people go back and reread it and get it eventually too, because it's so much more impactful than I ever imagined it to be. When I got to this part and I knew it was coming when I saw what we were doing in volume 22, I was actually not looking forward to reading this again. And I feel totally different now.
Matt (40:04.174)
Yeah.
Matt (40:10.35)
I just think that with age, you know, you're going to appreciate that family or those close to you much more. So it's just more, it's, it's more relatable than when I was in my twenties. Like some of these concepts, I just, I know them, but I didn't understand them. I didn't think about them on that level. It wasn't impactful to me. So I absolutely agree. Like a whole, yeah, yeah, definitely. This, this definitely hit.
Dave (40:22.683)
Yeah.
Dave (40:31.079)
Mm-hmm.
Dave (40:36.314)
Well, it's a hot take because I think from what I've seen online, I think it's not a wildly accepted opinion that reboot is a fantastic arc. I think most people don't like it. I think that's I think they're wrong.
Matt (40:52.334)
I don't know, I feel like these past two arcs, even though some of the stuff that I think is a little slow with the comic at times, the stuff in Teleskriya and all that, that's real world stuff. I moved my wife from our very comfortable living arrangement to a different state where she didn't know anyone, and that's very relatable to Eve in Teleskriya. So I just think that kind of stuff and-
Dave (41:14.142)
Mm-hmm.
Matt (41:18.638)
It's very relatable. It definitely like the family part for me is becoming obviously more relatable with each trade that we read. So that's a good take, man. That's I, yeah. I mean, I definitely plug in the circles probably a little bit more than you do for sure. But I, um, it's kind of crazy that everyone hated the one of the worst arcs. I don't know. I'd have to.
Dave (41:25.295)
Yeah, sure.
Dave (41:41.338)
I don't think it's fair to say that everyone hates it. I mean, there's not a ton out there. There's not like dissertations on Reboot available, but this was just quick internet browsing, some searches on Twitter. Just felt like there was more negative opinion about this than anything else I've ever seen on Invincible.
Matt (41:45.294)
Some online. Yeah, true. Yes, yes. You saw.
Matt (42:04.526)
Interesting.
Yeah.
Dave (42:07.698)
That's it. I have one hot take. That was it.
Matt (42:09.806)
Uh, I like the, uh, the hot, like I'm, I'm super amped up for to finish this thing out. I had just the whole being a hero is bullshit thing. Like I, you know, I love my heroic heroes and I don't, you know, I like my, my squeaky clean heroes or what the whatnot, but
I get it. I get why Mark did what he did. And these people keep attacking him and his family. So it's like, I'm torn, man. I don't like when Mark has a result to that level of physicality and that kind of mentality. But like, I get it. You guys are trying to get away. And every time you get away, you know, Thrag, especially, like he is just relentless. So I'm ready for this next volume and finish this out because I don't really remember how it happens. I wanted to...
You go ahead.
Dave (43:01.295)
Who's your favorite Marvel character again? I don't think he's very squeaky clean.
Matt (43:03.47)
Daredevil.
Probably. Oh no, he's definitely not squeaky clean. He's very relatable. He screws up. He kills people in accident. Like, I don't know. He's, yeah. He's a...
Dave (43:15.91)
I'm just, you know, I feel like this Mark's more like Daredevil than Captain America.
Matt (43:22.894)
Yeah, I just, I know I'm flawed though. That's why I relate to Mark. That's why I like Daredevil. I wish I could be Captain America, but I'm closer to a Daredevil than I am Captain America. So that's why, yeah, you know, I like the Superman as a character to aspire to because I know I'm definitely not that. I'm closer to Joe Chill than I am the Superman. So let's be honest, like, you know, I haven't killed anyone yet that I know of.
Dave (43:32.79)
Alright, here.
Dave (43:40.22)
Okay.
Dave (43:45.614)
You know what? Hey man, self-awareness is a really difficult thing to have. So kudos to you for being able to admit those things to yourself. A lot of people can't do that.
Matt (43:50.062)
Appreciate that. No, appreciate that. No, I definitely, I definitely am pretty self-aware. I know my flaws. So, that I really liked. It was, it was like the Godfather moment. Like they're trying with, if we ever hope to have our lives back for good, we have to fight. That's what Eve said, the close out that trade. And it was just like the Godfather every time they try to get out, they get pulled back in. Like they got to get, they got to try to figure this thing out. So.
I like that. And then the whole concept of like the Viltrumite forgiveness and no one was right all that time that like earth changed him. And I got there through Anissa this time. I won't say she's vile and despicable, but one of the most vile and despicable acts in this comic she was a part of and let it in the fact that like remaining on earth and she was resistant
to lowing herself to the level when Nolan was like, have a normal life, we gotta repopulate X, Y, Z. The fact that she was the one that was the most resistant to that. And then to find out that we ultimately did get there. And now, like you said, Markey, we just dropped Markey in and never hear about him again. I don't think we ever hear about him again. Like Nolan was right all that time. He really was. And...
Can we forgive the Viltrumites? I don't know. It's just the thought that had me thinking. I don't know.
Dave (45:24.838)
I don't feel like that's much of, I don't think I agree with this hot take. And this is awful. Awful.
Matt (45:33.678)
She's still, she's having a fit, she's settling down. She's having, no, he can never forgive. Never forgets, man. Mark's trying to, Mark could have outed her. You know what no one's gonna do. Mark would have, she would have been out of there if no one found out what he really did. Mark's trying to cover for her. So that's more of a reflection on Mark doing the right thing and not.
Dave (45:51.546)
Yeah. That's... I don't... I don't... I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Victims will do very uncharacteristic things when put in a difficult, stressful, traumatic situation with their attacker present. And I think Amisa still sucks.
Matt (45:59.79)
What?
Matt (46:04.59)
Okay, to Nadi.
Matt (46:12.206)
Gotcha.
True.
Matt (46:20.142)
Okay, no forgiveness for you.
Dave (46:22.818)
Nope. I turned around on Oliver. You got me on team Oliver.
Matt (46:26.83)
But then he betrayed you. Look what he just did. Yeah.
Dave (46:30.202)
Maybe I was right all along, I don't know. But I still was on Team Oliver for a really long time. I will never BT Manissa. Can't do it. Maybe you're a better man than me, you can forgive and forget, not me. Can't do it.
Matt (46:36.75)
Alright, there's some lines that can't be crossed.
Matt (46:43.31)
I would ultimately have to, I would ultimately have to concede that to Mark, but like you said what you just said, like, I don't know if Mark can ever give her true forgiveness or absolution or whatever. So very interesting. No, if he doesn't. And yeah, man, I'm interested to see where this ends up. Like I, I don't, I don't remember. I don't remember. So I'm really excited to finish this up.
Dave (46:55.552)
And he doesn't owe it to her either.
Dave (47:09.586)
I remember the end of volume 25, like the final few panels, but that's all I really remember. I remember the final battle and how the tide ends up turning in favor of the side that ends up winning, which I won't say who that is. I remember that, I remember the last several panels, and the rest is sort of a mystery to be a...
Matt (47:14.126)
Yeah.
Matt (47:27.694)
Yeah.
Dave (47:38.094)
revealed soon, which is a great segue into the end of our podcast. As mentioned in the beginning, we have one more Invincible episode to go. This one's going to come out in December, then we'll start January with our final Invincible episode. We will end January with the first episode of 2024's monthly read and discuss, and that's going to be The Boys.
and I am extremely excited about this for several reasons. One, I love the show. Two, I started reading the comic a long time ago, but never finished it. I only got like three or four trades in. So a lot of this stuff is gonna be new to me and I love reading new stuff. So I think it's gonna be fun too. And three, we might have an extra person with us to discuss the boys for those episodes, but you have to come back in January to find out if I'm telling the truth or not.
Dave (48:41.158)
Anything you want to add.
Matt (48:43.63)
Let's get on to the last volume, the end of all things if I remember correctly. That's what it is. But we're gonna get there.
Dave (48:48.218)
Yep, the end of all things.
All right. So we'll be back in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, it'd be awesome if you shared the podcast with someone that you know that likes comics, or even if they don't like comics, maybe they just like Marvel movies. We just took them things out behind the woodshed and beat them last week, last episode. Maybe you could show them that one. I don't know, they might be into that. Maybe it'll make them mad. And if they get mad enough, they can find us on socials and tweet at us. Our Twitter handles will be in the description of the episode, along with my threads.
Matt (49:08.622)
That's the...
Dave (49:22.206)
and our TikTok account. We'll be posting more on TikTok going forward. Short form content, clips from episodes, maybe some stuff that doesn't make it into the episodes as well. You never know what might be on there, but you can go follow us there on TikTok. The TikTok stuff will also get posted on YouTube. So if you're like the 1% of people that only watches YouTube shorts, you can still see this stuff. You can just follow our YouTube channel.
Matt (49:46.03)
Came at your neck, came at their neck.
Dave (49:49.806)
It is what it is, man. People aren't, it happens on TikTok first. It shows up on Instagram Reels a couple days later. And then like two weeks after that, it hits YouTube Shorts. That's when everyone that only watches YouTube Shorts finds out about trends and things. That's just the way the world works. I don't know, I don't make the rules, man. That's just how it goes. Anyway, we appreciate anyone that's checked out this podcast. You're the reason why we keep doing it.
Matt (50:00.206)
Hehehe
Matt (50:09.422)
That's true.
Dave (50:17.014)
and growth helps that too. So as I said, let us know how we're doing, share it, tweet at us, follow us, talk about comics, whatever. Try to make some friends and talk about comics.
Matt (50:28.398)
That's right.
Dave (50:31.186)
So we'll see y'all in a couple of weeks. My name is Dave. Take care of yourselves, everybody.
Matt (50:34.99)
And I'm Matt.
Peace.