75: Is The MCU Dying?

Summary

In this episode, Dave and Matt discuss the performance of MCU movies, including 'The Marvels.' They express their concerns about the quantity and quality of content being produced by Disney and Marvel. They also critique Taika Waititi's comments about Marvel movies and express their disappointment with his work on the Thor films. They also mention Mark Millar's move to Dark Horse Comics. The conversation covers DC's new compact line of books, the affordability of these books as an entry point for new readers, and a debate on the size of trade paperbacks. Our hosts also express their opinions on DC's strategy. 

Takeaways

·       The performance of MCU movies has been declining since 'Avengers: Endgame,' indicating audience fatigue and a more discerning approach to spending on Marvel films.

·       Dave and Matt express their disappointment with Taika Waititi's comments about Marvel movies and his lack of respect for the source material.

·       They discuss the move of Mark Millar's imprint to Dark Horse Comics and the potential impact on the comic book industry.

·       There is a concern that Hollywood may resort to remaking the Infinity Saga in the future, prioritizing financial success over originality. DC is launching a compact line of books in 2024, featuring smaller trades at a reasonable price.

·       The compact books could serve as an affordable entry point for new readers and be available in locations outside of comic book stores.

·       There is a debate on whether the size of trade paperbacks affects the appeal to readers, with one host supporting the smaller size and price point, while the other disagrees.

·       Listeners are encouraged to share the podcast and engage with the hosts on social media.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Update

01:21 Celebrating 75th Episode

01:58 Discussion on MCU Movie Performance

05:22 Opinions on 'The Marvels' Movie

08:23 Critique of Disney and Marvel's Approach to Content

19:04 Taika Waititi's Comments on Marvel Movies

23:36 Mark Millar's Move to Dark Horse Comics

36:01 DC's Compact Line of Books

37:00 Affordable Entry Point

38:03 Debate on the Size of Trade Paperbacks

39:10 Banter

40:32 DC's Uncomplicated Plan

41:53 Call to Action

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Original Music by Alex Productions
Show notes include some AI generated content

Transcript

Dave (00:02.698)
Welcome back to the Comic Dudes, a podcast about comic books and comic book related things. You might be asking yourself, hey, what happened to November's Invincible episode? And the answer to that question is it didn't come out. Why? Because I didn't read it. Why? Life got in the way. I work in e-commerce. You might know about what happens after Thanksgiving. There's a lot of people buying stuff, which means I have to fulfill a lot of orders at my work. So.

Matt (00:16.542)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Dave (00:32.106)
Well, I don't personally do that, but I'm, I run a team that does that sort of, it's neither here nor there. Uh, the point is, um, I just didn't get a chance to read it. So, uh, you know, we, we didn't have an invincible episode for November. We will have one for December though. So appreciate your patience and stick with us. It's coming. Uh, also I would be remiss if I did not mention this is our 75th episode, Matt.

Matt (00:58.842)
Yay!

Dave (01:01.616)
You can do better than that. This is our 75th episode, Matt.

Matt (01:03.195)
Yaaaaay!

Dave (01:14.526)
I think we deserve this round of applause. This is a monumental feat.

A lot of people don't even last for 10 episodes when they try to do a podcast. We're on 75.

Matt (01:24.958)
That's true.

God, how I've missed the soundboard. It keeps going, it doesn't stop.

Dave (01:32.17)
Yeah, no, we're still not done. We're still...

Matt (01:34.006)
It just trails off gradually. It keeps going and going. It's still going.

Dave (01:39.918)
So look, today's episode, it's really a bit of a, it's a hodgepodge of different things. I guess it's not really a news episode, but there's some news we're gonna talk about. But I know, Matt, you've got some things for us. So I'm gonna shut up and let you take us into the meat of what we're supposed to be talking about here.

Matt (01:58.182)
Yeah, man, these are like, honestly, some of my favorites. I mean, I love recording, but this is some of these just what I get to just ask you random thing. Episodes are my favorite. So since we haven't recorded in a little bit, there has been a new MCU release. Uh, the Marvels, I think it's like stronger, faster, higher. Uh, this movie did not go stronger, faster, higher. Uh, it did not do very well. Um, I don't have all the box office numbers, but I just remember seeing.

Dave (02:22.827)
No, it did not.

Matt (02:28.026)
Like the second week of this, that this movie came out, there was a 78% drop in sales, which is never good. And at the end of the day, this film ended up being the lowest ranked Marvel MCU release, even lower than Incredible Hulk. I really liked the Hulk, but you were right. Like no one went and saw that movie. So yeah, yes, absolutely.

Dave (02:49.378)
So, can I interject real quick? So, there's two ways that you can look at movie success in terms of box office receipts. So I actually did some research ahead of the episode. I did it on Box Office Mojo, which is powered by IMDB, and it gives you a lot of stats around like when the movie comes out, what its total gross is, and what its opening weekend receipts were. So...

Matt (02:58.078)
Sure.

Woohoo!

Matt (03:16.894)
Okay.

Dave (03:17.578)
I don't think it's fair to compare the Marvels on a total gross, because it hasn't even hit full worldwide release. That's going to last for a while. Typically, it takes you a couple of months, specifically with MCU stuff, because they have a pretty... Well, I mean, most of them last for a while in theaters. Yeah, so I think it's unfair to compare even to The Incredible Hulk, because it's months and months and months of The Incredible Hulk versus...

Matt (03:36.462)
You still want to LECS?

Dave (03:47.866)
only a few weeks of the Marvels. However, the thing that you can compare and can compare fairly is Opening Weekend. And it has the worst Opening Weekend of any MCU movie. Now there's a caveat because this does include Black Widow. Black Widow, if you remember, came out on Disney Plus exclusively. It didn't have a theatrical release.

Matt (04:14.972)
Yeah.

Dave (04:15.754)
So opening weekend numbers for Black Widow are estimates based on downloads. They did some funky math to get to an opening weekend dollar amount for that movie, but still. But, but even, even if you took 25% of the Black Widow opening weekend that they estimated away, the Marvels is still dead last by a pretty wide margin. It's opening weekend.

Matt (04:26.886)
Yeah, that's kind of a non-factor. I wouldn't even count that.

Matt (04:43.303)
Okay.

Dave (04:45.534)
was just over $46 million. For context, the next closest is Incredible Hulk. That did $55 million. And that came out in 2008. It was the second MCU film.

Matt (05:01.634)
And there was no MCU hype like it was in its peak or pinnacle or nearing that pinnacle.

Dave (05:05.015)
No.

No, they didn't even know that they were gonna make it through Avengers yet.

Matt (05:12.09)
Do you have any of the other ones outside of that? I don't know if you just got the Hulk. What was like after Hulk? Like what was after Hulk? Cause like, like.

Dave (05:14.698)
I have everything. I have all 33 movies.

After Hulk was Iron Man 2.

Matt (05:22.75)
that's like all the early stuff so they yeah it's like okay well so i mean i just have a couple questions like i know you were like comic wise you are a big marvels man carol danvers fan um you're a big carol danvers fan always have been have been since i've met you early on like did you even go see this movie like you're

Dave (05:26.358)
But there's, I'll, I'm going to get more into this in a little bit, but go ahead and I'll, I'll shut up.

Dave (05:41.322)
Yeah, not Marvel's, just Carol Danvers.

Matt (05:52.163)
Yeah, so.

Dave (05:52.574)
Uh, I, so I didn't, but the reason I didn't is not purely, um, because I was not interested in the movie. Um, there's some, there are some personal reasons that I didn't go see this. Um, primarily because I, I comfortable sharing this because, uh, my

Matt (06:05.254)
Gotcha.

Dave (06:17.79)
my partner, girlfriend, she's very public about it. She actually did an entire podcast episode. She was in somebody else's podcast being interviewed about this very important part of her life. She is a breast cancer survivor and there's some recurring cancer themes in this movie. And she was like, until I find out for sure what that really is like, I don't know if I wanna go see that because she's pretty sensitive to those types of things. And

Matt (06:36.604)
Mmm.

Matt (06:43.207)
Yeah.

Dave (06:46.21)
that's extremely reasonable and I support that. And I said, well, that's easier than to make my decision. I was on the fence about it. That just solidified that I wasn't gonna, I didn't wanna see it enough to go see it by myself. I can wait for Disney Plus for this one.

Matt (06:48.422)
No. Yes. Yeah, that puts you- yeah.

Matt (06:59.274)
Exactly, 100%. No, I completely understand that. I don't know, man. I feel like the cast, like Elan Villani, she's super likable. And I didn't even watch that. I watched one or two episodes of Miss Marvour Eclipse. I don't even think I watched an episode, but Eclipse, like, super likable. The chick who plays Monica Rambeau is super likable. I think Brie Larson is a little

Dave (07:27.726)
I love Brie Larson, man.

Matt (07:28.898)
I know you love her in general. I just, I think she's a little stoic in the role, but like, I don't think she's terrible. I've

Dave (07:34.094)
But so is Carol Danvers, like have you read a Captain Marvel comic?

Matt (07:37.986)
I'm not going to debate you on the merits of Carol Danvers. You can, if that's what Carol Danvers is, that's fine. I'm just saying as an outsider, like I don't know who this movie was like made for, to be honest. Like I don't, no one asks, well, the female, who is it for? Cause like, I don't know.

Dave (07:44.803)
She is.

Dave (07:51.614)
Oh, I do.

Dave (07:59.774)
You really you really you really don't know who this one's for? It's as for the shareholders, baby, we're trying to cross the streams. We're taking people from the Disney plus shows. We're making them go to the movie theater. We're making the people from the theaters sit on their couches and watch our Disney plus shows. It's synergy.

Matt (08:02.298)
Who's it for? It ain't for me, so like, yeah.

Yeah, well yeah.

Matt (08:11.387)
Yeah.

Dave (08:22.13)
It didn't work.

Matt (08:23.63)
All right. So you killed my second point. The problem with Disney and Marvel, no, you went perfectly into it. The problem with Disney and Marvel and Star Wars is all this is like, it's just a content farm at this point. We don't prioritize, I mean, they do not prioritize quality at all. I would prefer lesser quality with much better quality any day of the week. I remember these even towards the end of the MCU.

Dave (08:25.795)
Sorry.

Matt (08:50.486)
I remember these movies like early on they were events and they were special and you were like hyped when there's and I know that you've I might have arrived at this conclusion in this point earlier than you have but like even when your job started picking up like you're in a relationship now so you're getting it but like when your job started ramping up and you started moving and you started your band and all this stuff like dude like you cannot keep I can't keep up with this stuff it's too much it's

way too much. There's no breaks. There's never, it never stops. There's always something you have to keep up with. And when the quality isn't there, in my opinion, thank you for not kicking me out of your house when I was like, She-Hawk is crap. And you're like, no, this is a good show. I appreciate our friendship. And during that, that's fine. That's fine. That show is crap. The CG is crap. And the CG and Shang-Chi is crap. And all like, oh, it just, it looks

Dave (09:37.646)
I like She-Hulk, I stand by that. I like She-Hulk.

Matt (09:48.654)
cheap and bad in my opinion. And there are things, this is the comic dudes, this is the most attitude I'm going to have. Like if you like that stuff by all means, there's definitely things that I like that aren't of quality either. Like I get it, but it really has become apparent to me that these are content farms and I can't, I personally cannot keep up. And when they're, when I turn on the TV and I go back and I see the older movies,

Dave (09:56.43)
Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm

Matt (10:16.926)
I'm like, man, like there was something here. And I'm not even talking, I'm talking even newer stuff. Like I like the newer Dr. Strange movie. I'm not saying, oh, like, oh, back in the day, like the original Iron Man, like, no, like, some of the newer stuff is good too. I thought Wakanda Forever was these things. You know, I'm just, something is missing. Like we've lost the plot and I'm done.

Dave (10:37.806)
You know, it's funny, while you're saying this, I'm looking at, I have two monitors, and my second monitor has a spreadsheet with every movie, like I was saying, every movie, it's total gross, it's opening weekend gross, and then I added columns to rank the total gross 1 through 33 and the opening weekend 1 through 33, and I have their release dates as well.

Matt (10:44.486)
Yeah, here you go.

Matt (10:49.746)
See, he's got data.

Dave (11:07.19)
So let me just share with you some interesting facts about the MCU. As I stated, 33 films. So we're gonna call like 17th would be the midway point. That's basically 17th is the designation between top half and bottom half performance or total and opening weekend. There's an inflection point.

Matt (11:21.938)
Okay.

Dave (11:36.298)
in the MCU and we all know what it is. It's Endgame. And boy, when I tell you it has been downhill since Endgame, this is what I mean. Opening weekend receipts. Since Endgame, there have been four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, only 11 films. So a third of the total films have come out after Endgame.

Um, six of those 11 are in the bottom half in opening weekend performance. Of those six, uh, four are in the mid to late twenties. And then we have the marvels, which is dead last. Uh, so Spider-Man far from home, only 92 million black widow, 80 million shang chi 75 million, eternals 71 million ant man and the wasp and quantumania.

106 million and then the Marvels at 46 million. There's that run of like far from home through Eternals. Their opening weekends ranked 22nd, 25th, 27th, 28th. They consistently got worse. They're total gross. Only Spider-Man Far From Home finds itself in the top half in total gross. Black Widow's 27th, Shang-Chi's 23rd, Eternals is 31st.

Matt (12:37.255)
Really?

Dave (13:04.166)
Ant-Man and the Wasp is 25th, and the Marvels is currently 33rd, but it's only been out for several weeks. That one's probably an outlier, but still, it's not going to make it into the top half. It's going to make it to the 20s, maybe. It's only at 81 million right now, which is not great. That's actually the only film for total gross that is in double-digit millions. Everything else is triple-digit millions, but again, it's early. It's...

Matt (13:13.341)
No.

Dave (13:33.138)
It's also exactly what you said, where there are still some gems. There are still a lot of good things happening. Spider-Man, No Way Home, second in total gross, second best opening weekend. I'm going to asterisk this one, though, because that was like the dirtiest, grossest Sony nostalgia play and a nostalgia play on movies that, in my opinion, aren't even any good anymore. Those Toby McGuire and Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man films

Matt (13:55.342)
Yeah, yeah it was.

Dave (14:02.53)
do not stand up, I will die on that hill, that shit sucks. They're bad movies. The only one that's sort of redeeming is Spider-Man 2, like the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man 2, and even that one's a difficult watch to go back to today. You mentioned Doctor Strange.

Matt (14:18.534)
Do you know how much I've sacrificed? Norman in the boardroom. That's what I'm best at.

Dave (14:23.818)
You mentioned Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. Seventh best opening weekend, ninth in Total Gross. You mentioned Wakanda Forever. Eighth best opening weekend, seventh in Total Gross. The other two films, Thor Love and Thunder, it's in the mid teens, Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3, also in the mid teens. Thor Love and Thunder, 13th opening weekend, 15th Total Gross.

Guardians 3, 16th in opening weekend, 14th in total gross. So top third-ish, well actually it's top, top of the middle third, but still. All of the high performing films are end game and pre end game. The original Avengers came out in 2012, May 4th, 2012. Fourth best opening weekend, fifth highest grossing MCU film.

And then you've got, yeah, you've got things like Black Panther, fifth opening weekend, third total gross, Avengers Infinity War, third for opening weekend, fourth total gross. Even the original Captain Marvel's the eighth highest grossing MCU film.

Matt (15:19.17)
surprised by that though. I'm really not.

Matt (15:35.695)
Yeah, no.

I didn't know that's crazy. That's not that's kind of a shocker. Yeah

Dave (15:40.286)
Yeah, and the 11th best opening weekend. But it benefits from releasing in between Infinity War and Endgame. However, the first Ant-Man and the Wasp also released between Infinity War and Endgame, and that movie ranks 26 for opening weekend and 24th for total gross. And what this tells me is that it really doesn't matter if the movie is good.

Matt (15:48.722)
The end game build.

Dave (16:09.966)
If it's characters people want to see, it's gonna do well.

Dave (16:15.858)
And if it's not, it's not. The MCU is not infallible. I think there was a perception prior to Endgame that everything hits and there are no misses in the MCU. And what we've learned since Endgame is that, one, you're right, I think there's a lot of fatigue. There's too much, there's too much content. People can't keep up. I don't keep up, you don't keep up. But also, I think from a forgiveness standpoint,

people are a lot choosier with how they're going to spend their box office money on the MCU. And that could be due in part to the fact that I can consume quite a bit of cinematic universe content on Disney Plus in my own home for $12 a month or whatever it costs in the way of shows, not necessarily movies. And you've said this a bunch of times, when everything matters...

Matt (16:58.286)
Yes.

Matt (17:11.282)
Nothing matters.

Dave (17:12.834)
Exactly.

Matt (17:15.77)
That is a great, that's a great thesis. Um, so, oh man, dude, we could take a whole episode of talking about this. Like, cause part of me is just like, yes, there are, well, yeah, like part of me is like, yes, there are certain realities post end game, whatever post pandemic. Like that changed a lot of things. Like, so I am sensitive to that, but then you, and I don't want to compare it like necessarily to a top gun, but like, I'm going to compare this stuff to top gun.

Dave (17:25.467)
We actually have before.

Dave (17:33.93)
Yeah, it did.

Matt (17:44.314)
Like if something is quality, like people will go out and see it. My other thing is like with end game approaching, I really feel like they should have had a more concerted effort or plan to start working some of these characters in sooner in that plan. Like we should have probably gotten like Ms. Marvel worked in there sooner. In my mind, in my opinion.

This is like the Miles Morales theory why I think he is like more accepted than some of the other newer characters they come up with is because Miles has been around. You've been, you've seen Miles grow. He's been here for like 10 years. Like some of these companies, in my opinion, I think they're pushing for diversity. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad or good thing. But when you just jam it and say, this is the most important character of all time, it's not going to hit. You have to include that and put in the sweat equity and time.

So people learn these characters, these characters matter. So that's what I'm saying. Like Ms. Marvel should have been in there earlier. Let's get her, let's get them in earlier. But like, I also am understanding the business realities of like contracts. We can't have Chris Evans and all these people forever. So I'm just, I wish there was a better way they went about it necessarily to work some of these characters in. So they really end up mattering instead of just doing like some of these movies at the tail end.

That's just something I was kind of thinking about rattling up in my brain. But it's a really fascinating thing. Like I really don't. I know I might come off as that guy, but like I ultimately want this stuff to be successful. I'm not, I'm not like, oh yeah, the Marvels failed. Like, no, I want this stuff to be good. It's just, I don't know. There's a lot of content and that's for me, that is a problem. Like you said, when everything matters, you know, everything matters, nothing matters. But yeah.

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Like, I want this stuff to do good, but.

Dave (19:34.658)
Of course. Of course. My final thoughts on this and it's really it's about you know what's what comes next like is there a way to fix the MCU? I don't know because now we've got we've got a problem with the next big bad Kang. That dude ain't acting in these movies anymore. He's done. He's out.

Matt (19:47.814)
Yeah, dude, like...

Matt (20:01.536)
Oof. You think he's out? You think he's out for sure? He can't beat the case? I don't think he can either. Yeah.

Dave (20:03.522)
He's gotta be, dude, he's gotta be.

Dave (20:09.61)
I don't think so. So there's a, do you pivot away from Kang? Do you recast? What do you do? I don't know. But the way that they set up Kang to introduce him in the first season of Loki, and then he just shows up in Ant-Man and the Wasp in quantumania, and we're supposed to just go, okay, well, so he's the next big bad, but he is not in Guardians of the Galaxy volume three. I don't know if he's in the marbles.

Matt (20:30.078)
What's the build?

Dave (20:37.358)
Um, but y'all wrote the playbook for how to do this. Folks over at Disney, you have the exact script that you need to follow. It's, it's called the infinity saga. So I think people would have been super accepting of that thing. Just running it back with like a new villain. I know I would have, but one thing about what's happened since end game. Um,

that I think is a risk when I look at how poorly some of these movies are performing from a financial perspective. And I think about.

what Hollywood so often goes back to the well for. In four and a half years, it will be the 20th anniversary of Iron Man releasing in theaters, the first Iron Man. And the thing that keeps me up at night thinking about the MCU is, are they gonna start redoing these movies?

because Hollywood loves to go back and remake a film. We reboot, we remake, we recast, we do whatever. The one thing that Hollywood really doesn't seem to enjoy is originality. We want things that are tried and true that make money. And the thing that is the truest and fastest way for Disney to make money on Marvel films would be to just redo the Infinity Saga. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen.

Matt (21:50.342)
Hmm

Matt (21:59.75)
Yes.

Dave (22:14.582)
But I think it's a real possibility that in the next 15 years, we get like remakes of some of those original films, recast obviously, because you know, Robert Downey Jr would be 75 years old or whatever. Um, so I hope that doesn't happen, but.

Matt (22:28.99)
Yeah.

I think we're definitely gonna get, I don't think we'll get remakes, I think we're definitely getting recast character. Like I feel like all of them are gonna be recast, the Avengers. You have to. Yeah, I don't know.

Dave (22:41.161)
I think you have to, if you're going to keep this thing going.

I don't know. Anyway.

Matt (22:49.676)
Oh, okay. One more.

Dave (22:50.71)
That kind of ended on a downer.

Matt (22:53.594)
No, it is what it is man, like I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Okay, can we get to a topic that really kind of made me mad?

Dave (23:03.502)
Of course.

Matt (23:06.126)
So please correct me on name pronunciation if I butchered. I'm not trying to butcher the guy's name, but Tychoatini. I butchered it here. I think that's close enough. There was an article that broke recently on Variety and a bunch of other websites about his interest in Marvel movies and being cast in one or being the director of one. So I'm going to read you a couple quotes, Dave. I don't want to misquote him. This was on a podcast he was doing.

Dave (23:12.782)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's close enough.

Matt (23:36.602)
I forgot to write the name of the podcast, but it was a it's like a comedy kind of podcast, but they asked him about You know Marvel movies and what were his thoughts and all that kind of stuff. So It's not really a comedy podcast. It's like has a comedic flair, but it's like Hollywood personality. So This is what he said. So he said first quote You know what? I had no interest in doing one of those films what he said It wasn't on the plan for my careers in a tour

but I was poor and I just had a second child and thought, you know what, this is, would be a great opportunity to feed those children. I'm going to interject right there. I mean, I'm not super mad about that. Like do you need to feed your family? So like, I get it. I understand. But I was just like, that kind of rubs me the wrong way. It's the one that got me and Thor. Let's face it.

It was probably one of the least popular franchises, he continued. I'd never read a Thor comic book as a kid. The thought of the comic that I pick up, it was just like, ugh. And then I did some research on it and I read one Thor comic or like maybe 18 pages long or however they were. I'm still baffled by this character.

Matt (24:55.698)
Dave.

Dave (24:55.726)
Could I give you quick reviews of Taika Waititi's Marvel work?

Matt (25:00.246)
I have three quotes. That's my second quote, but the one I want to save at the end. So I'm done. Those are my quotes, but yes, please give me your quick reviews.

Dave (25:06.35)
I would just, yeah, yeah. So quick review, Thor Ragnarok.

Dave (25:13.442)
Thor Love and Thunder.

Dave (25:17.398)
Back to you, Matt.

Matt (25:20.23)
Well, this segment might be pretty quick. This segment might be pretty quick at all. Do this statement boiled my blood. I was so pissed when I read this. This confirms, and once again, I was on this train pretty early, but I will give you credit. You were definitely on board this train with me. We were like some of the only people who were like, that Bragnamrock movie stunk. And the second one,

was even worse. And we said it on day one, like this is not good. And the fact that these are the people that are shepherding your franchises, and pardon me, I've been, had this boiled in all week, they don't give a shit about the material, they don't give a shit about the source material, really pisses me off. This is Disney 101 in my opinion. I said it.

I get crucified all the time by my other buddy, not you, about Star Wars. This is exactly what happened with the sequel trilogy. There was no plan. We're just throwing stuff up against the wall. And how dare you? Me as a passion fan, and I don't get overly passionate. Star Wars is something that meant a lot to me as a kid, like a lot. And Marvel as well too, like through your friendships. I remember calling you and I was like, I was crying in the movie theater. That's how good of a job they do.

So sorry I'm a little impassioned. And this is why I'm just done at this point. Because when I read shit like this, this confirms everything I thought. And I see it with my own eyes. And no one can tell me otherwise.

Dave (27:03.11)
I mean, yeah, like what I... No notes. That, yes, I agree. You know what? I bet if I made those movies in retrospect, I'd be trying to distance myself from them a little bit, too. Because I have to, I have to think that people, you know, the fan feedback on Love and Thunder, I feel, has gotten worse and worse.

Matt (27:06.328)
So.

Dave (27:29.318)
And you know, there's been little snippets. We've talked about them before on various episodes where like, they, they talked about how they were too jokey and you know, even I, wasn't it, uh, Chris Hemsworth himself said that like his kids, kids friends were like giving him shit about stuff that was in love and thunder. It's like, yeah, you know what? I would probably at this point, if I was Taika with TD, I'd also be trying to say, Oh yeah, I didn't.

Matt (27:32.146)
Yeah.

Matt (27:42.95)
Yeah, um...

Yeah.

Dave (27:54.798)
I was collecting a paycheck. Yeah, man, you made shitty movies. Like, of course you're not gonna talk about how proud you were of them now.

Matt (28:04.362)
I feel like if you made a Thor movie, if any of us who are remotely a comic book fan, like me, I'm not the biggest Captain Marvel fan, but if I was gonna write a Captain Marvel movie, I would at least be familiar and read some of the source material and understand the character and do something. I'm not saying you have to be like, have 50 long boxes in your basement. Like that's not the expectation. I expect you to deviate. I expect you to deviate a little bit.

I'm not expecting a one for one interpretation of the source material, but this is just like a joke, dude. I'm just appalled. I was appalled when I read this and I think it's because it did strike that Star Wars nerve with me. You just don't respect these characters. You guys just do whatever you want and you expect everyone to throw down their money and no, I'm not doing it. There's my attitude.

I'm still pissed about it. Like...

Dave (29:02.595)
I love it.

Matt (29:05.278)
Uh, if that's it, the closing quote I want to say, which was his, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Dave (29:07.954)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I got, I got nothing to say about this dude. I've been off, I've been off Taika Waititi for a long time. He ruined some of my favorite characters. Um, I loved Thor prior to him getting his claws on it. Yeah. The very first comic we ever bought was a Thor comic. Um, he ruined Korg. He turned Korg into a punchline. You know, him and Taika Waititi and James Gunn both are like on my list.

Matt (29:19.486)
That's your first comic book, isn't it? That's what I'm saying. Like, this is crazy. Oh my God. Oh.

Dave (29:35.69)
Like, I don't want them touching comic book properties. That's why I've been so nervous about the DC stuff with James Gunn leading it, because I just, I hated what he did to Guardians. The first one was okay. Guardians 2. Ugh.

Matt (29:35.771)
Yeah.

Do you see stuff?

can see that.

Matt (29:50.778)
See, I really need to read some of that Guardians material because like that, my exposures through that movie and I know like Drax is nothing like that. Like I know that, I know that for a fact. You know, it's so sweet. Cause you're like, yeah, it was okay, but like that's not Drax. Like that's not any of those characters. Yeah, dude.

Dave (29:59.106)
Sure isn't.

Dave (30:10.758)
Yeah, I mean if you want to read anything, Guardians, read the Dan Abnett and Andi Lanning stuff, like the Annihilation and all that stuff. That's some of the best cosmic marvel that you'll ever read.

Matt (30:18.098)
Annihilation.

Dave (30:27.646)
Anyway, you hit us with this quote.

Matt (30:28.538)
And that's the comic dudes. The last quote, and I think this is indicative of where we're at on the MCU. And we can kind of leave it here. And that's been kind of the bulk of our episode. Yeah. This is Taika. Um, so they had asked him when asked if Marvel executives were scared to bring you in as a director, uh, what Tiki answered.

Dave (30:38.998)
This is who's saying this again? Remind me. Is this OK? Still all right.

Matt (30:54.998)
I think there was no place left for them to go at that point. I thought, well, if they've called me in, this is really the bottom of the barrel.

Matt (31:09.102)
And that concludes the state of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Dave (31:16.994)
Thanks, I hate it.

Matt (31:20.386)
I have two just very quick comic book things. I know that was a bulk of our discussion, but I wanted to just, there's two kind of news things that interest me. One was Mark Millar moving his imprint to Dark Horse Comics, moving all the Millar books from Image to Dark Horse, which is kind of a coup for Dark Horse. I'm like, they're kind of on the IDW watch for me. They're not as bad as IDW, but like they're kind of like on the way out, but they're doing okay.

Uh, this is starting it. They do. So yeah, as long as you got hell boy, you saw you Jimbo, like they'll be around. But, uh, the millar stuff is kind of the BBRD. Yeah. Uh, so that's.

Dave (31:50.614)
They got Hellboy. As long as they got Hellboy. Hellboy, BPRD, Black Hammer. That stuff keeps them going.

And you soggy, you're right, you soggy too.

Matt (32:07.722)
RIP Bill, I hope you're still with us. I don't know, I'm not sure, but whatever. I don't know, I don't see him anymore. I don't know. I don't see him, so he's kinda out of my life, but that was my guy, I like that guy a lot. So.

Dave (32:11.158)
Damn dude, the RIP, you don't even know? You know this man's alive and you're restin' piecing him?

Dave (32:21.114)
I guess out of sight, out of life, if any of Matt's friends, family, acquaintances are listening to this podcast and you haven't heard from Matt in a while, guess what? He thinks you're dead.

Matt (32:23.898)
No.

Matt (32:30.426)
You're out of my...

Matt (32:35.474)
Hey, this is how I gotta live my life sometimes. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Dave (32:38.05)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (32:40.61)
Alright, Malar stuff's moving over in 2024. That's pretty much it. Kick ass. Yes, sir.

Dave (32:45.07)
Okay, I have questions, I have questions. Is it really pronounced Malar and not Miller?

Matt (32:50.586)
Yeah, it's Mark. I want to say it's Malar because the only reason, the only reason I'm going to say that is because the thing I was going to plug at the end, he's actually has a YouTube channel I found and he I watched the YouTube video of him today. Actually, he doesn't he doesn't post that much. He's like maybe once a month, but he'll interview like a famous, normally like a famous comic book creator. But he is recently I saw him put something out on Twitter.

Dave (32:54.967)
Really?

Matt (33:19.226)
He's going to try to get like three different comic stores and he wants to interview them and see how like the direct market is actually going and like a boots on the ground take. And he said, Milar. So I've never called him Miller. I thought it was always Mark Millar, but that's where I'm getting it from.

Dave (33:37.291)
Okay. I got a pronunciation that no one will hear but me in my AirPods, but I'm gonna play it for myself real quick. Please pause.

Matt (33:42.578)
Good earplates.

Dave (33:45.922)
Alright, well I don't know if that's accurate. That said Mark Miller. But then right underneath that, right underneath that there's like a website that says 108 pronunciations of Miller or Millar in English, which seems to be of no help. If there's 108 different ways to say that name, I honestly don't care anymore which the right way is. They're probably both right, so whatever.

Matt (33:47.303)
Hehehe

Maybe.

Matt (34:03.025)
Different one, yeah.

Matt (34:08.851)
Yeah, it's both right. So I feel like everyone in my circle for the most part has been a lot.

Dave (34:14.582)
Okay. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a circle when it comes to your my circle when it comes to talking about comic books for the last several years. So, um, honestly,

Matt (34:20.666)
Yeah, got you. Have you read it? Have you read any of his work? Like I've read wanted, like you gave bought me a wanted trade for like five bucks and I love that. I've always wanted to read kick-ass, but I never did.

Dave (34:27.894)
Yeah. Yeah, I've read Wanted. I've read Kick Ass. I read Kick Ass. I saw the movie, obviously. You know, his, he had a, he had a three issue miniseries that was like, it was his imprinted image. I forget what it was called. It was like about like the resurrection of Jesus, but it was like, yeah, so, so reverent in his, his style. I've honestly seen stuff.

Matt (34:35.187)
Yeah.

Matt (34:48.894)
American Jesus.

Yeah.

Dave (34:55.702)
very recently, like within the last year or so, I feel like a lot of people are turning on the man. Like I've seen it on Reddit a lot too, where people are just like fed up with him. They think that his style is, he's more shock value than any sort of like meaty type of content, which I can see why you might think that, but I'm pretty...

Matt (35:01.083)
on him.

Dave (35:24.002)
take it or leave it with that guy and his stuff. Like, I don't love anything that he's ever put out, but I don't really think about him either.

Matt (35:33.246)
I really liked his ultimates. The first volume of ultimates was really good. Him and Hitch. That was real good. What is this A on my forehead stand for? France? I don't know, did he do authority? I think so. Him and Hitch. Yeah, I was gonna say him and Hitch maybe did authority.

Dave (35:35.934)
Yes. Yes, it was. Yep.

They need to be authority to.

Dave (35:46.75)
He wrote the authority too, didn't he? I think him and Brian Hitch did the authority. Cause that's why it was a big deal that they were on Ultimates together.

Matt (35:54.194)
Got you. Yeah, Ultimate's is good.

Dave (35:56.778)
I don't know, I could be, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know. I'm not gonna look it up. I know I just googled how to pronounce his name. I'm not gonna google anything else. I don't care.

Matt (36:01.538)
Yeah, you went through all that's way harder. It's way harder. And then the last thing, um, I thought it was kind of interesting from DC. They're starting this compact line of books starting in 2024. Um, there's about 10 books, Watchmen, Quarterval, Batman, Quarter Vals, All-Star Superman, Far Sector, Wonder Woman, American Vampire, Volume One, Batman Hush, Joker.

Harley Quinn and Gotham City Sirens and Catwoman Trial, the Trial of Catwoman. What these are, they are smaller trades that are gonna be reasonably priced. They're 10 bucks in color. Eight and a half, I think the measurement was eight and a half's like normal length of a comic book, but it was shorter, eight and a half by six, I wanna say it was. So I'm probably actually gonna get those for 10 bucks.

I want to check them out. They look kind of interesting. So I think these... I've seen the images online. It looks like an interesting...

Dave (37:00.246)
What do you mean they look kind of in- what does that mean they look-

Dave (37:05.57)
This isn't like new stuff. It's just, they're just trade paperbacks, right? They're just tiny. So what?

Matt (37:09.37)
Yeah, yeah, but they're compact. They're perfect for a toilet.

Dave (37:15.198)
So is your phone, man. Read it digitally.

Matt (37:18.046)
I'm not trying to break my phone. Everyone has their phone in the bathroom. But I'm not yet. I think it's just a good entry point. Like we used to have back in the day, Dave hates it. He thinks it's whack. We used to have the essentials, which were an affordable way to read comics. Granted they were in black and white. I think this is an affordable way. Maybe we get some of these at the grocery store. Maybe we get them somewhere else outside of comic book stores. I don't know, but I think it's a good way.

Dave (37:22.655)
Exactly.

Dave (37:31.551)
What?

Matt (37:46.43)
Floriferate comics somewhere else, but they might not be. Bookstores, et cetera. Think it's a good idea. Good job, DC. Dave hates it. Dave hates reprinting any old material, any old material, facsimile, done. Doesn't matter, no.

Dave (37:55.289)
No, not a good job DC. What is the-

Dave (38:03.254)
No, but you're saying things that don't make any sense. Oh, this is a, this is an entry point for someone that doesn't know about comic books because you reprinted Hush in a digest size. What? What do we think that like people that haven't read comic books before are turned off by the size of the books today? If we make them smaller, they're going to somehow be more appealing. What? It doesn't make any sense.

Matt (38:24.565)
We have smaller hands. We have smaller hands Dave. The price point Dave. $10 is a good price point. You can't, you can't even get mad at that. That's a great price point. Most trades are like 18 bucks.

Dave (38:37.39)
You know what else is a great price point? 5.99 for a month of unlimited. That's that you want to get people interested. Give them that for a month. Give them a free month of, give them a free month of infinite ultra. That's how you get people interested. Reprinting a 20 year old comic book and digest size is stupid. That is, that is the most non-news news I've ever heard. Are you want us to care because you're going to make books smaller? Come on.

Matt (38:42.587)
but you gotta have like a 10,000.

Matt (38:46.963)
10th.

Matt (38:50.342)
Yeah, that's true.

Matt (39:10.15)
Well guys, I almost made it through an episode without getting cussed, but that's why we're the Comic Deans. No, he's unhinged. We almost got through one whole one, but we're back. We're back in better than ever.

Dave (39:10.606)
Come on.

Dave (39:15.182)
I'm not cussing you, I'm cussing DC.

That's so dumb.

Dave (39:30.866)
I just don't understand. I just don't understand it. Like that doesn't make any sense to me. That is not the, the barrier of entry to comic books is not the size of the fucking trade paperback. I'm sorry. It's not. I was 10 years old. I could hold those things just fine.

Matt (39:44.2)
I've just-

I'm just picturing you like in a house behind me just talking mad shit. I'm talking to someone out front. Just going off behind me. I love it so much. That's it, Dave. That's all I got.

Dave (39:53.687)
Hahahaha

Dave (40:04.49)
Well, I guess there's nothing left to say. I could rant about this more. There's just no need. If we wanna talk more about the barrier of entry to comic books, I've got a lot of ideas about that. The size of the paper they're printed on is definitely nowhere on the list, but I'm glad that DC is trying to solve problems that no one has. I'm sure that'll work out great, because as we've seen over the last several years,

Matt (40:09.214)
I'm glad.

Matt (40:20.85)
That could be an episode.

Dave (40:32.75)
They've got a very clear and uncomplicated plan. Do you have a profitable and successful line of comic books? This is just, you know, another, you know, notch on the belt of like high strategy. Like they're playing 4D chess, man. We just don't understand.

Those that don't know, I'm being extremely sarcastic. My delivery is extremely dry. So if you've never listened to this show before, this is your first episode. If this is your first episode, I'll understand if it's also your last, but boy, we'd appreciate it if you stuck around. And that's my segue into getting us out of this episode. So if this is your first episode, thank you. If you liked it, share the podcast with a friend, family, somebody you work with that likes comic books.

Matt (41:02.103)
If this is your first episode, God bless you.

Matt (41:09.47)
Hahaha

Dave (41:24.33)
It helps us grow, growth helps us continue in the podcast. We wanna do 75 more of these at least. So we'd really appreciate that. In the description of the episode, I'll also put our Twitters and my threads and our TikTok. We do post and frequently on TikTok. Sometimes it's content that isn't available in the actual episodes of the podcast. So there's a reason to go there and follow us there. Let's talk about comic books on the internet. We like doing that. So follow us, maybe we'll follow you back and...

talk about some comics. We'll be back with an Invincible episode this month. We will get one out in December. We'll finish up our 20th anniversary celebration of Invincible in January. And we'll also kick off with the 2024 monthly read is gonna be in January as well. So lots to be excited about for us to read and talk about. And hopefully for some of y'all that listen to our podcast, we'd like to see you.

again and again and again. Matt, anything else to add?

Matt (42:26.514)
Nah, I'm good. I think you covered it.

Dave (42:29.014)
Fantastic. Well, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. Until then, my name is Dave. Take care of yourselves, everybody.

Matt (42:34.139)
And I'm out.

Peace.